Etsy Forums Follies: vintage sellers afraid of bad karma won't report fraudulent listings! #etsysellsvintage

One of the earliest Myths of the Etsyverse, dating back more than a decade, is that it is "bad karma" to report a fraudulent shop or listing to Etsy's Marketplace Integrity Team.  This complicit involvement with reselling by shop owners who themselves are honest and professional bears a large burden of the responsibility for the overwhelming presence of deceptive listings on the site today.

And the "bad karma" myth will not die!  In August 2019 an Etsy vintage seller started this thread:  I just came across a shop selling NEWER Barbies and doing quite well but   Here's the original post:



I cannot bring myself to report them. What is my responsibility as an Etsy seller? I have come across questionable shops before, but this is ridiculous! She has a 2018 doll in people's carts. I don't like to cause trouble, but I have a Vintage Shop and don't believe in cheating. Why can't I bring myself to turn these cheaters in?? I favored the shop just to see how long this goes on. I feel like I am hurting other Etsy sellers by not reporting this. Do YOU report the shops you find that are not in compliance with Etsy's guidelines? I worry about bad karma, maybe that is ridiculous, but it is why I try not to stir the pot so to speak. Thank you in advance for your advice on this matter. Am I part of the problem if I do not turn the shops I come across in? Will Etsy even do anything about it?


In reality, it doesn't matter that this dumbun won't report the shop.  Etsy wouldn't act on it, even if the AI that screens all reports submitted by the community passed it on to be viewed by a human member of the Marketplace Integrity Team.  Vintage has never had any kind of strict definition on the site, and has always been whatever Etsy management and staff would like it to be at the moment.

But this thread is loaded with entertainment, and is well worth a read.  It's a tasty bit of crazy from first post to the last.

More Etsy Forums complaints from the seller community about the quantity of fake vintage and fauxtiques for sale on the site #etsysellsvintage

Another one!  Here's the thread:  what is being done about NON VINTAGE items being sold as vintage?  The answer, in one word, is nothing.

Contrary to the icing drips from the Forums cupcake posts, there is nothing the Vintage seller community can do about this issue.

Reporting doesn't work.  All flags are reviewed by AI  before being seen by a real live human Etsy employee.  Most reports are simply discarded by the AI code, no matter the type of item being reported.  There is no way to know for sure, but my guess is only reports that deal with items that might get Etsy corporate into legal difficulties for being listed on the site are passed on by the AI.  This does not include IP violations, unless the community member making the report owns the IP in question.  Nothing else is addressed.

Any item can be considered "vintage" on Etsy if the seller describes it as a "reproduction".  That's right!  The item can be a brand new, fantasy vintage-style, piece never made until the 21st Century.  But it's all good according to Marketplace Integrity:  all Etsy sellers are honest, and if the seller says it's a "reproduction", then it is.  Additionally, items designated as "reproductions" can be dated to the age the seller believes the items represent, listed accordingly.  Such as "vintage from the 1910s" for a contemporary fake Nippon hat pin holder.  The word "reproduction" Teflon coats your listing, baby.

Etsy altered the listing form twice to include more items newer than 20 years old as Vintage.  The first time was circa 2011 when category double and triple dipping was added, to create nonsense listings like "vintage handmade" and "vintage handmade supply".  Of course it's possible that an artisan could have created some handmade glass beads, for example, 20 years ago -- and have some left to sell.  But most "vintage handmade" items turned out to be NEW handmade items created with "vintage" (maybe) materials.  This was reported to Etsy as a Bug in the Forums; resolved as "that's intentional, it's all good".  Except it's not:  it's not Vintage, except on Etsy.

The second change was offering the option to list "vintage" digital downloads, when digital items were added to the listing form, circa 2013.  A copy created after purchase isn't considered "vintage" anywhere outside the Etsyverse.

Etsy just wants the money from any listing, for any item, and it's the seller's choice whether to call a recently mass manufactured product Handmade or Vintage, even though it is neither.

If you don't care for the deceptive marketplace on mendacious Etsy, find another place to sell.  Etsy doesn't see fake vintage as a problem, and you're not going to convince them otherwise.

"Sell anything on Etsy" -- In new Forums topic sellers discuss the flood of newish stuff pretending to be vintage on Etsy #etsysellsvintage

Here's the thread:  Sell anything on Etsy. Vintage....NOT.

Somehow these Etsy sellers have missed the gradual change during the past decade where the published guidelines for sellers actually allow new items to be sold as Vintage.

Examples:

• Downloads of digital files.  Only in the Etsyverse is that what is meant by a "vintage print".
• Reproductions.  On Etsy, you can date and price a brand new, Asian import, vintage-style item as if it was old -- even antique.  
• Rocks and minerals.  Sellers import pounds of these from Asia, recently mined and processed.  That is not what vintage means or is.  And finished products made from minerals (pyramids, spheres, columns, coasters) are brand new, mass manufactured, products from Chinese factories -- not Vintage outside the Etsyverse.
• Major brand overstocks of discontinued or seasonal items that are just a few seasons old.  These have been allowed by Etsy's Marketplace Integrity Team as "vintage" since 2012.
• Products made by the sellers from destroyed Vintage items.  Like "ephemera packs" that include pages removed from books and magazines in random or themed assortments.  Confetti stamped from vintage paper items.  Stacks of covers removed from Vintage books.  

Check out the listings of the top 100 most relevant Vintage (?) listings at the Vintage promotional link at the top right of every Etsy site page to see what I mean.  As I type there are

• 13 listings for mineral specimens
• 4 digital downloads or new printings of digitized "vintage" images
• 3 reproductions/newly made vintage style products
• 7 listings for altered, formerly vintage, items including clothing, furniture, confetti, and ephemera packs
• 2 listings for new native craft products made in a traditional style
• 4 "u pick" clothing assortments where no items are shown in detail.  Used?  Probably.  Vintage?  Who knows.

So there's the consistent percentage of non-vintage listings in all Vintage "promotions" on the site:  31 items (above) out of 98 (first 2 pages) most relevant listings = 32% or 1/3. 

The problem is not a matter of inadequate "policing" to enforce the rules.  The rules actually allow these items to be listed on Etsy as "vintage".


Update:  some comments in response to inaccuracies in posts in the Forums thread linked above.

Page 1 "a real person has to go over every report".  Nope.  Etsy has programmed AI code to review all flags/reports, to select which ones should be reviewed by a human.  The majority of reports are discarded before being read.  This is why reporting/flagging no longer works to remove shops and/or items that are clearly in violation.  While there is no information from Etsy about what reports are retained for human review, I am guessing that they concern items whose presence on Etsy might get the corporation in some kind of legal trouble.  

Page 1 (bottom) "they remove things right away when the obvious are pointed out -collectible dated 2004, dvds that were releases in 2010.. things like that."  Nope.  This hasn't been the case since the introduction of the (now defunct) Browse sections.  Items curated into the Vintage Browse section that showed a date (such as 2004) on the item, clearly visible in the curated-in thumbnail were not removed, but promoted.  See this post dated May 2015 from my companion blog Fake Shaming Etsy.  The third item shown in the post has a clearly visible 2004 on it, but it was curated into Vintage Browse by Etsy staff.  In November-December 2015, Etsy was promoting "vintage" STAR WARS collectibles in anticipation of the release of THE FORCE AWAKENS in Dec. 2015.  Somehow Etsy staff considered collectibles related to a yet unreleased film to be "vintage" -- see this post from early December 2015 in my companion blog about non-vintage items included in a "Vintage" STAR WARS promotion.

Page 2 "Etsy has never claimed to be a curated site".  Not the site as a whole, but all promotions are curated.  Etsy staff used to curate ALL the front page collections at the start, changing over to a shared curation with community created "treasuries".  Promotions curated by Etsy staff, in 2007 through today in 2018, have always included reseller items pretending to be "handmade" or "vintage", or contemporary handmade items the seller decided (for visibility) to list as "vintage".  Again, take a look at my companion blog Fake Shaming Etsy for many posts about the items featured in Etsy staff CURATED promotions.

Fake Vintage on Etsy today: top 100 most relevant Vintage items include many newer than 20 years old #etsysellsvintage

I haven't done one of these posts in a while, and thought another was overdue.  Read, and be amazed at what items are among the top 100 most relevant "vintage" listings on Etsy as I type.

Here's a new reproduction of The Legend of Zelda: The Minish Cap a game that was originally released in 2004 and 2005 (depending on location).  Listed by GamePalace who sells reproductions of games (not the original products), many of which were originally released in the 21st Century -- in other words, new copies of content newer than 20 years old can be sold as "vintage" on Etsy!

6 brand new units in stock.  Listing ranks as 84th most relevant Vintage listing.


Here's a Vintage Bible Journal Kit listed as a "vintage supply" even though the package includes (according to the seller's description) "a mix of old and a few new" pieces.  Listed by ThePaperBasket the package actually includes handmade (altered) paper items, which can't be considered "vintage" after being altered by the seller.  Clueless or mendacious or both?  You decide.

The photo above shows shapes stamped out of book pages and bookkeeping paper.  Listing ranks as 76th most relevant Vintage listing.


A contemporary printing of The Original Rider Waite Tarot gets backdated by mendacious seller TranscendentalismGB into a "vintage item from the 1910s".  This is true only in the Etsyverse where the guidelines for sellers allow the dating of any reproduction to the age of the original!

Buy the same boxed set for less on Abe Books where the publication date is listed as 1999.  This listing ranks as the 67th most relevant Vintage listing.

July 16, 2018

New fake vintage items ranked in the top 100 most relevant Vintage listings.  The 61st most relevant item is this brand new cast iron pointing finger hand listed by reseller xlr8imports who has an Etsy shop filled with brand new cheapie import products (hence the shop name) listed as "vintage".  You can be sure that no one that squeezes their support into the #etsysellsvintage Klown Kar has ever reported this seller.

Also resold by mendacious Etsy shop CosmicLibrary as a "vintage" crafting supply  xlr8imposts has the lowest price I've seen online -- just $7.99, 12 units in stock.  Also sold on eBay, Amazon, and some of the homewares sites.  Not Vintage!

Etsy buyers who don't comparison shop get ripped off by mendacious reseller of fake vintage 20thcenturydesignsny #etsysellsvintage

Yes, it's true!  An Etsy buyer paid the "reseller stupid tax", purchasing a lamp

• listed as "vintage" which is actually brand new
• priced at more than twice the market price
• that was mailed to the buyer missing its shade that comes with the base as sold everywhere else, and was listed by the deceptive seller as a lamp and shade

Instead of doing what a sensible buyer would do outside the Etsyverse -- demand the shade or a complete refund -- the buyer in this case left a 4 (out of 5) stars review, and says they might buy from this long term reseller's shop again if the description was more accurate.  Seriously?  A long term Etsy reseller's business model is creating deceptive listings to snare buyers who seem somehow unable to comparison shop online.

Let's meet the long term reseller who has been passing off brand new products as "vintage" literally for years.  20thcenturydesignsny was last featured in my companion blog during April 2018 and one of the fake vintage items I called out was this

Modern Geometric Table Lamp Fabric Drum Shade Diamond Shape Base

Note that the listing title (copy and pasted above) clearly mentions both the lamp AND the shade.  This is how it is sold by the manufacturer, as shown in the photo from 20thcenturydesignsny's listing -- which belongs to the manufacturer and is NOT an image of the actual product mailed to the customer.  Listed by 20thcenturydesignsny as a "vintage" item, it's actually new and easily found for sale online -- complete with the shade.  This eBay listing shows the brand (Lighting EVER), the manufacturer's product number, and the UPC -- showing that 20thcenturydesignsny deceived her buyer about this item being "vintage".  The eBay seller at the link is selling the lamp + shade for $32.99, including shipping.  20thcenturydesignsny originally priced the item at $75 (!) and then reduced the price to $55 (maybe when something happened to the shade?), and there was a shipping charge.  As I type you can buy this product directly from Lighting EVER on sale for just $20.32.

Okay.  I've shown that the buyer was ripped off in 3 ways (not vintage, comes with shade which was not shipped, and was massively overcharged by the greedy and mendacious seller).  Here's the review left by this so-not-savvy buyer:

The base itself has a great shape, but it is smaller than the picture/description suggests. HOWEVER, there is no lamp shade that came with the base, which was not specified in the description of the product. This should be explicitly mentioned next time an item like this is sold.
Bottom line: I'd buy this item again but I would want a clearer description telling you that it is just the lamp base, NOT the lamp shade and the base.

If the buyer who wrote the review above had read the review just below it, they would have realized that 20thcenturydesignsny is dishonest.  Check it out:

Product is NOT vintage—cheap little replica—going in a back guest room, so not worth fighting over

 The item purchased was this brand new, vintage style, starburst wall clock that the seller listed as a "vintage" item, and has sold 2 units (including the one reviewed above), with 1 unit still available for sale priced at $139 -- another brand new, easy to find, item priced at more than twice the market price.

How nice for the buyer that they consider paying $139 to a dishonest merchant "cheap" and getting ripped off "not worth fighting over".  Because if this buyer had comparison shopped simply by copying the photo (belongs to the manufacturer) from 20thcenturydesignsny's listing into Google Images, they would have discovered how much less you need to pay for the very same item!  Available for just $57.90 (free shipping, too) on Amazon  Just $70.99 on Wayfair  And $62.99 on Houzz

This, dear readers, is what makes Etsy "unique" and "special" (as described by CEO Josh Silverman):  the buyers on the site are happy to over-pay deceptive sellers for merchandise "not as described", and rarely demand a refund.  It's called the Etsy Reseller Stupid Tax for a reason.

March 2017: Etsy search results show the most relevant Vintage items are brand new

March 01 Super Relevant Fauxtiques

Just listed today, this set of brand new makeup brushes is one of the most relevant items in Etsy search results for all Vintage items.  As I type, 5 units have already been sold from this listing, with 47 "vintage" units in stock.  The (re)seller is CometDepot could definitely teach a thing or two to the silly Etsygirls asking in the Forums for help in making sales with a new Etsy shop!

Described by the seller as a "premium" and "high quality" brush set, the listed price is $12.99.  I guess I don't know where to shop because the brushes I use sell for more than $12.99 each!  Here's the manufacturer's listing on Alibaba  Not vintage!

March 20

As all my readers should know by now, Etsy considers PDFs to be "vintage" as long as the content of the file is at least 20 years old.  Likewise, a photocopy of any vintage paper item you can make at your local big box office supply store is "vintage" on Etsy.  Taking full advantage of the twisted guidelines of the Etsyverse, this PDF of a knitting pattern dated to the 1920s sold by patternsalacarte is one of the most relevant items today in an Etsy search for all Vintage items. 

The only photo included in the listing is shown above -- note that there is no information in the image that dates the pattern to the 1920s.  Even more hilarious, the seller has "completely" rewritten the instructions and added a list of resources for purchasing the purse frame -- so what is for sale is a contemporary knitted purse pattern based on a (maybe?) design from the 1920s.  Listed as a "vintage handmade supply from the 1920s" which is, of course, an impossibility. 

Overview

• Vintage handmade supply from the 1920s
• Instant Digital Download: 1 PDF included
• Feedback: 1263 reviews
• Favorited by: 338 people

Not vintage.

Etsy Forums Follies: AttiCuties insists that all items listed on Etsy as Vintage are 20+ years old. Even though she sells contemporary products as vintage in her own shop.

Yet another Etsy shop owner feels that the use of the keyword "vintage" in item titles is a waste of space!  Only in the Etsyverse could it be true that the best keywords to use are the ones that don't apply to your item!  Here's the Forums thread:  Does It Make Sense to use VINTAGE in a TITLE since All Items Must be Vintage to Qualify  The original post says:

Because ETSY requires items that aren't handmade to be at least 20 years old to qualify for posting on the site, does it make sense to use the word Vintage in your listings?

So many of us do but the thought occurs that it could be a wasted word since it has to be vintage.

The amusing thing about the post can't be found in the Forums topic, though:  the owner of Etsy shop AttiCuties who posted the bit quoted above sells fake vintage:  such as items you can buy right now, as I type, from a big box retailer.  Many of the items listed as "vintage" in her shop are not yet 20 years old, and some of the listings actually use images "borrowed" from the manufacturer.  Maybe she feels awkward claiming items she knows aren't actually 20+ years old are VINTAGE in her titles? 

Let's have a look at some examples, shall we?

Here's a listing for a (maybe used?) Disney Sing and Giggle Minnie made by Fisher Price pretending to be "vintage".  The photo below belongs to the manufacturer, and does not show the actual item for sale -- a huge no-no when selling "vintage".

Priced at $34.95 by AttiCuties, just 5 cents less than the price of the same item sold on Amazon brand new in box.  May be out of production since listing pages at WAL-MART, toysRus and Target say "no longer available".   40 pages of customer reviews on Amazon date as far back as 2011. 

More:  take a look at this Just Married glass ball ornament that AttiCuties dates to the 1990s.

The seller's Description for the item says "there is the Glory Halls (sic) manufacturing logo" on the piece, but it clearly says Glory Haus, a brand that dates from 2008 according their Our Story page.  Even if this ornament was one of their very first products, it's not even 10 years old as I type in 2017.

This candle lamp by Lexox is part of their Linen Closet line, and the listing's tags date it to the 1990s.

Once again, AttiCuties is being deceptive.  The Linen Closet line was discontinued less than 10 years ago and produced 2004 -- 2008.  Once again, not vintage.

Another AttiCuties item listed with a photo belonging to the manufacturer is this decor block that says "Grandparents so easy to operate even a child can do it".  The item's tags again date it to the 1990s.

Available from Houzz brand new, made by Adams and Co., a brand that was started in 2002 according to their About Us page  Anyone else starting to see a trend here?

AttiCuties came to my attention about a year ago as a major seller of contemporary Fiesta ware, all listed as "vintage" of course. 

Here is a pair of Scarlet Red salad plates produced in the 21st Century;  Scarlet was introduced in 2004.

AttiCuties makes up a color name for this green saucer which looks like it could be Shamrock, introduced in 2002. 

This Fiesta ware creamer in Sunflower is tagged as "collectible".  But Sunflower was introduced in 2001, and is still being made.  Definitely not vintage.

Once again AttiCuties creates a fake name for the color of this orange 9 inch plate using both Fiesta color names "Tangerine" and "Apricot" in the listing's title and tags.  Two very different colors, Apricot is retired, but Tangerine (the color of the plate in the listing) was introduced in 2003, and is still being made. 

AttiCutie's shop is proof that items listed on Etsy do not have to "qualify" by being 20+ years old.   

Some of the most relevant items in Etsy search for Vintage are actually brand new: Early February 2017

This was a recurring theme post in my other blog about mendacious Etsy, Fake Shaming Etsy and Its Resellers , and I intend to continue with it here.  By way of introduction, Etsy encourages certain select resellers to list their mass manufactured products as "vintage" rather than "handmade", for several reasons.  First, because the sale of the same product over and over again has been heavily promoted by Etsy's SEARCH algorithm since circa 2011 as more relevant, but authentic vintage items are mostly sold as one-offs by Etsy sellers.  Second, anything that dilutes the authenticity of Vintage on the site is seen as a plus:  the majority of the Etsy community from management, to the staff, to the sellers, know little to nothing about Vintage and, based on their lack of knowledge, have decided they don't like it.  Finally, any listings for products mass manufactured in an Asian factory are given an extra warm welcome by Etsy corporate.  Over the last handful of years, the increasing presence of brand new products pretending to be "vintage" has gradually led to the closing of authentic vintage shops selling similar merchandise.

I personally would guesstimate that about 40 percent of items listed on Etsy as "vintage", aren't.  This series of posts will show you why.

February 09, 2017

Pier Etsy Platform (resellers of native craft imports as either handmade or vintage) shop CultureCross has one of today's most relevant listings on Etsy in a search for all Vintage items.  This brand new, mass produced, Tibet silver and dyed Howlite bracelet has been reviewed, vetted, and approved by Etsy's mendacious Marketplace Integrity Team as a proper "vintage" listing. 

Listed as "Southwestern" turquoise jewelry, it is an Asian design with no turquoise or silver used to make it.  It's Tibet silver (an alloy) and Howlite stone dyed a fakey looking turquoise color.  The Overview information reveals that it isn't turquoise...

Overview

• Vintage item
• Materials: silver, brass, howlite turquoise
• Ships worldwide from United States
• Feedback: 1478 reviews
• Favorited by: 534 people

...but that isn't searchable.  The title and tags falsely state this to be a vintage turquoise bracelet.  Priced at a laughable $25.00, you can buy the same bracelet for just $4.19 on Ali Express with free shipping.  Need I mention that many more than one dumb bunny Etsygirl has purchased this item on Etsy?  Which is why it has become ultra-relevant in search results.

February 10, 2017

Another fauxtiques reseller on the Pier Etsy platform is CuteMatryoshka who lists newly made Russian craft items as "vintage".  Open for just over 2 years now, the shop has sold nearly 800 items -- this is a long term reseller.  Today one of the most relevant items in a search for all vintage on Etsy is this brand new hen with chicks painted wooden doll set -- 10 units in stock, all pretending to be "vintage".

For sale at Russian Crafts using the same photos, description and price, without any mention of it being "vintage".  This deception is reserved for mendacious Etsy, whose dim bulb employees working for the Marketplace Integrity Team can't see the shop's tag line which clearly states:

vintage style Russian dolls

The seller's About Page suggests she is the artist who handpaints these items...

A few years ago I had period of my life when I had enough free time. The friend of mine gave me idea to paint nesting dolls and gave me a lesson how to do it. I never painted before and never thought that I could create anything interesting. From the very first time I was fallen in love with it and soon I painted more or less good matryoshka dolls.

... so why are they all listed as "vintage"?  One of the many mysteries of the mendacious Etsyverse!


Since a few Ty Beanie Babies are now 20 years old, all Ty Beanie Babies are now considered "vintage" in the mendacious Etsyverse.  Which is why Etsy shop GertrudesVintage can list one introduced in the 21st Century for sale on Etsy.  One of the most relevant items today in a search for all Vintage on Etsy is Sonnet the Dog who was sold for about six months in 2003-04 as a Valentine's Day themed gift item.

Visit the shop for more newer Beanies pretending to be "vintage"!  Beanie Babies are super easy to date online; several sites have comprehensive listings including photos, descriptions, introduction and retirement dates.  There is no way a seller can't know the actual age of these collectibles, outside the Etsyverse, that is.

Etsy long term reseller fabthings10 claims necklace imported from China was handmade by her in the 1970s

Etsy long term (but small sales volume) reseller, fabthings10 , opened in 2015.  As I type, the shop has just one listing for a brand new mass made necklace imported from China that the seller pretends is "vintage handmade from the 1970s", according to the item's Overview:

Overview

• Vintage handmade item from the 1970s
• Ships worldwide from United Kingdom
• Feedback: 3 reviews
• Favorited by: 13 people

Nine units in stock, with 1 already sold.

Not designed or made by the seller.  Available wholesale from AliExpress priced at less than $4.00 per unit.  Although the Chinese merchant used the word "vintage" in their AliExpress listing title, it's new.  Note the contemporary lobster clasp in the photos, used by manufacturers of cheapie fashion jewelry beginning in the early 1990s.  Generally, describing any item listed on Etsy as "vintage handmade" is a sure sign the seller is deceptive -- which is definitely the case with the mendacious fabthings10,